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	<title>Comments on: Agile antipattern: Burndown &#8220;wall&#8221;</title>
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		<title>By: Agile antipatterns: Agile burn-down chart roundup post</title>
		<link>http://www.agileforall.com/2009/12/14/agile-antipattern-burndown-wall/comment-page-1/#comment-473</link>
		<dc:creator>Agile antipatterns: Agile burn-down chart roundup post</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Dec 2009 17:47:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.agileforall.com/?p=1072#comment-473</guid>
		<description>[...] Agile antipattern: Burndown “wall” [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Agile antipattern: Burndown “wall” [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Hartman</title>
		<link>http://www.agileforall.com/2009/12/14/agile-antipattern-burndown-wall/comment-page-1/#comment-427</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Hartman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Dec 2009 17:01:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.agileforall.com/?p=1072#comment-427</guid>
		<description>Matthias, thanks for the story.  It is all too common.  It sounds like you weren&#039;t quite doing true Kanban where a WIP limit for testing could have helped.  I know Kanban is usually a pull system and you can&#039;t pull more into a state beyond the WIP limit, but a limit on pushing into a state can also be done.  Limiting WIP in all states almost universally improves a team&#039;s performance.

Yesterday in a talk at Google someone tweeted that Jeff Sutherland said &quot;a team that concentrates on finishing ONE story before moving to the next will be twice as productive as other teams.&quot;  I thought that was rather enlightening since his expertise is in the area of hyper-productive agile teams.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matthias, thanks for the story.  It is all too common.  It sounds like you weren&#8217;t quite doing true Kanban where a WIP limit for testing could have helped.  I know Kanban is usually a pull system and you can&#8217;t pull more into a state beyond the WIP limit, but a limit on pushing into a state can also be done.  Limiting WIP in all states almost universally improves a team&#8217;s performance.</p>
<p>Yesterday in a talk at Google someone tweeted that Jeff Sutherland said &#8220;a team that concentrates on finishing ONE story before moving to the next will be twice as productive as other teams.&#8221;  I thought that was rather enlightening since his expertise is in the area of hyper-productive agile teams.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthias Marschall</title>
		<link>http://www.agileforall.com/2009/12/14/agile-antipattern-burndown-wall/comment-page-1/#comment-426</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthias Marschall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Dec 2009 14:41:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.agileforall.com/?p=1072#comment-426</guid>
		<description>Hi Bob,

I faced the very same issue, when I introduced agile the very first time to a team. But instead of having a burndown chart, we used a more Kanban like story wall as our main information radiator. So instead of seeing a &quot;cliff&quot;, we saw a big cluster of stories gathering in the &quot;testing&quot; column of our wall. And, of course, we had all the issues you mention in your post. 

For us, making the &lt;em&gt;developers&lt;/em&gt; aware of their responsibility to drive a story to done did the trick. &lt;em&gt;They&lt;/em&gt; had to make sure they get a sign off by QA and finally the PO. Before we changed to that model, they had a &quot;commit and forget&quot; mentality: &quot;Someone will be there to tell me if there is a problem with my stuff...&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Bob,</p>
<p>I faced the very same issue, when I introduced agile the very first time to a team. But instead of having a burndown chart, we used a more Kanban like story wall as our main information radiator. So instead of seeing a &#8220;cliff&#8221;, we saw a big cluster of stories gathering in the &#8220;testing&#8221; column of our wall. And, of course, we had all the issues you mention in your post. </p>
<p>For us, making the <em>developers</em> aware of their responsibility to drive a story to done did the trick. <em>They</em> had to make sure they get a sign off by QA and finally the PO. Before we changed to that model, they had a &#8220;commit and forget&#8221; mentality: &#8220;Someone will be there to tell me if there is a problem with my stuff&#8230;&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Lowery</title>
		<link>http://www.agileforall.com/2009/12/14/agile-antipattern-burndown-wall/comment-page-1/#comment-425</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Lowery</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2009 22:30:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.agileforall.com/?p=1072#comment-425</guid>
		<description>Thanks Bob that&#039;s great advice</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Bob that&#8217;s great advice</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Hartman</title>
		<link>http://www.agileforall.com/2009/12/14/agile-antipattern-burndown-wall/comment-page-1/#comment-423</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Hartman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2009 21:45:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.agileforall.com/?p=1072#comment-423</guid>
		<description>Mike, I think a PO probably should actually see it rather than relying on automation.  Sorry to have to go against what you wanted me to say.  However, I tell teams I train that a PO that is unavailable is the #1 cause of project failure.  A better question is to ask the PO about the risk involved.  If he or she doesn&#039;t approve something during that last day, what happens?  Is it ok for the work to spill over into the next iteration.  I consider that a MUCH worse issue because it leads to all kinds of possible bad behavior on the part of the team and the PO.

The goal of teams should be to have the ability to have a story accepted every day (they won&#039;t always use that ability, but they should have it).  If this means the PO says automation is ok, or has a proxy PO or is simply more available doesn&#039;t really matter to ME.  It should matter to the team and the PO though.  Get a way to say yes we can accept something every day and this problem (and many others) will go away.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike, I think a PO probably should actually see it rather than relying on automation.  Sorry to have to go against what you wanted me to say.  However, I tell teams I train that a PO that is unavailable is the #1 cause of project failure.  A better question is to ask the PO about the risk involved.  If he or she doesn&#8217;t approve something during that last day, what happens?  Is it ok for the work to spill over into the next iteration.  I consider that a MUCH worse issue because it leads to all kinds of possible bad behavior on the part of the team and the PO.</p>
<p>The goal of teams should be to have the ability to have a story accepted every day (they won&#8217;t always use that ability, but they should have it).  If this means the PO says automation is ok, or has a proxy PO or is simply more available doesn&#8217;t really matter to ME.  It should matter to the team and the PO though.  Get a way to say yes we can accept something every day and this problem (and many others) will go away.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Hartman</title>
		<link>http://www.agileforall.com/2009/12/14/agile-antipattern-burndown-wall/comment-page-1/#comment-422</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Hartman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2009 21:42:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.agileforall.com/?p=1072#comment-422</guid>
		<description>Agile, not a bad idea.  Wish I had thought of it.  Oh well, wall it is for me this time, but cliff it shall be in the future!  Thanks for the suggestion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agile, not a bad idea.  Wish I had thought of it.  Oh well, wall it is for me this time, but cliff it shall be in the future!  Thanks for the suggestion.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Lowery</title>
		<link>http://www.agileforall.com/2009/12/14/agile-antipattern-burndown-wall/comment-page-1/#comment-421</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Lowery</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2009 21:13:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.agileforall.com/?p=1072#comment-421</guid>
		<description>Great post.
I saw a burndown like this on my last project on the very first sprint. It was due to testing, but not directly from the team (TDD before dev and exploratory or manual testing after. Part of our definition of done included the product owner saying that they were happy with  the story explicitly rather than implicitly via automated acceptance tests. This resulted in a sprint that would have had a &quot;normal&quot; burndown but because the PO had other items on their agenda this test did not get done until the last day of the sprint and we had a wall like your example. We made some progress in changing this pattern. Do you have any advice on getting the PO to agree that their acceptance tests are enough once automated?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post.<br />
I saw a burndown like this on my last project on the very first sprint. It was due to testing, but not directly from the team (TDD before dev and exploratory or manual testing after. Part of our definition of done included the product owner saying that they were happy with  the story explicitly rather than implicitly via automated acceptance tests. This resulted in a sprint that would have had a &#8220;normal&#8221; burndown but because the PO had other items on their agenda this test did not get done until the last day of the sprint and we had a wall like your example. We made some progress in changing this pattern. Do you have any advice on getting the PO to agree that their acceptance tests are enough once automated?</p>
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		<title>By: Agile</title>
		<link>http://www.agileforall.com/2009/12/14/agile-antipattern-burndown-wall/comment-page-1/#comment-420</link>
		<dc:creator>Agile</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2009 19:27:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.agileforall.com/?p=1072#comment-420</guid>
		<description>Shouldn&#039;t that be &quot;Burndown Cliff?&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shouldn&#8217;t that be &#8220;Burndown Cliff?&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Tweets that mention Agile antipattern: Burndown “wall” -- Topsy.com</title>
		<link>http://www.agileforall.com/2009/12/14/agile-antipattern-burndown-wall/comment-page-1/#comment-419</link>
		<dc:creator>Tweets that mention Agile antipattern: Burndown “wall” -- Topsy.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2009 18:53:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.agileforall.com/?p=1072#comment-419</guid>
		<description>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Bob Hartman, Agile Carnival. Agile Carnival said: Agile Bob - Agile antipattern: Burndown “wall”: Does your team have an iteration burndown chart (giving credit ... http://bit.ly/8QNyRJ [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Bob Hartman, Agile Carnival. Agile Carnival said: Agile Bob &#8211; Agile antipattern: Burndown “wall”: Does your team have an iteration burndown chart (giving credit &#8230; <a href="http://bit.ly/8QNyRJ" rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/8QNyRJ</a> [...]</p>
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